The Boy Scouts and Girls; a changing relationship

It should be noted that the Boy Scouts have reached out to a Girls program and signed a Memorandum of Mutual Support with the American Heritage Girls. AHG is more conservative than the BSA, but they've also been considerably more courteous towards the Boy Scouts. (I'm a BSA leader and certainly been subjected to more than one tongue-lashing from GSUSA leaders.) With AHG growing exponentially each year, and the BSA opening up their camps to girls, this relationship will begin to close that gap. BSA also hosts a number of girls-only Venturing Crews, as well as the co-ed Venturing Crews as well as the new rebound in Sea Scouts.

i have no doubt that girls could do the stuff in boyscouts but its called boy scouts for a reason

My daughter was a member of a Boy Scout troop in California back in the late 1980's. She had been a Girl Scout and didn't like it because she learned only what she could learn in a semi-luxurious campground- no survival skills or roughing it or backpacking, etc. She did learn about hygeine, make-up, making lanyards and other arts and crafts and cooking on a camp stove. She dropped out. In middle school she had a female teacher who was a Boy Scout leader. My daughter joined her troop as a boy. She registered using a masculine aproximation of her real name. The boys in her troop and their parents were the only ones who knew the truth. My daughter blossomed in the BSA even though she had to hide her gender. She remained a gender-bender until right before she was ready to start her eagle project, at which time she was found out. She went on to become a high adventure Explorer Scout(a coed program within the BSA). At no time in her scouting career did her gender create a problem except where the BSA counsel was concerned. Yes, it was dishonest, but it was the only way my girl could get the scouting experience she craved when she was a preteen. I regret the deception, but not the outcome. Today my daughter is a successful career woman and mother. She met her ex-husband at a scouting event when she was still gender-bending. She is an upstnading Christian and respected in her community. I believe her success is due, at least in part, to her being a Boy Scout. She learned skills and values that will be with her for life. No one can take that away from her.

I have done some personal research on this subject and what I think is that The Boy Scout troops should be left alone since they are Boy Scout troops and not Girl Scout troops.

However, Venturing exists for several reasons, one of which is to keep older boys interested in Scouting. I can see how Cub scouting could easily integrate girls since it doesn't specify gender in the name. The problem comes at that critical point in transition from cub scouting to boy scouting. There could be some added organization to this for girls, but would include a new program.

First let me say the reason why so many people look to BSA to fix ot address these issues is because in the broad scope of things the BSA has a wonderful program that everyone wants to be a part of. They all like it EXCEPT (put your reason here).

Whatever reason it is whether it is religion, $exua1 orientation, or gender.

But we look to the BSA to create the programs the way we want them because in the very gist of what they offer they have a really good thing and they are established with a program, and uniforms, and symbols, etc. no one wants to re-invent the wheel. And honestly from many of the efforts I have seen in re-inventing the wheel the programs are left lacking a lot.

One option I have been looking at is incorporating Camp Fire USA in my community in order fill the niches that BSA is not. I am still looking into this, but My wife was a Campfire girl when she was young. This organization has become co-ed though.
The niches we are looking to cover in our community are youth Pre-k and Kindergarten (Even though there is a pilot program for kindergarten cub scouts called Lion cubs).
And for girls from cub scout age until they can join Venturing. Currently we run a cub scout pack, support a Boy Scout troop, and are creating a co-ed Venturing Crew. This is nice and it helps the community and helps our youth to grow into responsible caring adults.

The only issue is the lacking the 2 niches we have. We think we may solve that with Camp Fire USA. We will see I still need to talk with them about information about units and waht not though.

As for the future of BSA though I think that the BSA could provide for the girls. My idea is asa follows.

Cub scouts--co-ed from Kindergarten through 4th grade.

Webelos--boys only--transition to Boy Scouts
Webelos equivalent--girls only--transistion to Girl equivalent (with girl specific needs)

Boy Scouts (Tenderfoot through 1st class)
Girl Equivalent (either rename ranks or keep same)

The older gorups I believe could have a couple choices here.
1 Have top 3 ranks the same and be a co-ed unit,

2. Have Seperate top 3 ranks [females could earn the Eagless(female eagle)rank as males could still keep the Eagle award whil both having as much weight and connotation as the Eagle award]

3. Join venturing that can still allow them to work toward highest rank awards in their respective sides as well as venturing awards.

You see the issue isn't why BSA won't do this, but that maybe the ideas haven't been proposed to them yet. And I am taking this very post and presenting it to them for review to see what they think.

In the end I think like life it makes sense to have the younger children together, then diverge them for a couple of years until they are old enough to be of Venturing age, and then bring them back together at that time to learn together once again.

Let us create solutions, not problems.

Their membership is also declining because they discriminate against former members. I AM and Eagle Scout. At the time I was a devout Catholic. Now, however, in my 30s with kids I am an atheist. Unfortunately, the BSA won't accept my children. This is remarkably painful for me and other former scouts who are discriminated against.

I can't imagine what it must be like to be a child who has a change of heart about their religious or s*%ual orientation while still in scouting. Those poor kids have the run yanked out from under them. At least I had my religious change of heart in adulthood.

BSA wants membership? Open you hearts to those men who were once proud members of your ranks. I'll sign my boy up in a heartbeat.

I am an experienced Cub Scout Leader who also has a daughter of Cub Scouting age. The difference in culture between our local Cub Scout Pack and our local Cub Scout Troop is marked and distinct. Cub Scouting is, at least in spirit, a family-oriented program that allows and encourages sibling participation. In practice, siblings frequently get discriminated against at overcrowded Council and District events. They do want to earn awards and patches too. The Girl Scouts will not allow siblings to stay for the meeting. The result being, our family can and will participate in the Cub Scout Pack, but not the Girl Scout Troop. Not to mention, there is one of me and two of them, and I would much appreciate it if Cub Scouts went coed. Not the Boy Scouts. Just the Cub Scouts. I want to see BSA and GSUSA get together and to forge one program for boys and girls ages 6-11. I am well aware of the differences between the organizations, and it would hurt nobody, and help many if they have postponed the effects of these differences till age 11.

Declining numbers are representative of the cultural shift away from being active in the outdoors due to technology and poor nutrition. The bigger problem is lack of adult leaders and active parents. We need fit parents to lead their children into these outdoor programs.

Merging two organizations will not remedy the declining membership. It will continue to decline until interest increases in health, fitness and the outdoors. Parents must lead by example.

As the parent of a 4th year Cub SCout (soon to be Boy scout) and second year Daisy girl scout I think they should be seperate. OUr two groups do get together for certain things, but the older girl scouts do just as much archery, camping, canoing and outdoor stuff as the boys group does. A lot is up to the leaders (and I am the Daisy leader). The girls decide what activities we do and vote- just like cub scouts. Camping hasn't been an interest to our 6 year old girls yet, although several of the girls have camped with their older brother boy scouts on family camping trips. There are active Boy scout groups and active girl scout groups, just as there are inactive ones. The leaders are volunteers- if the kids want more camping and more strenous activites- fabulous- the parents need to jump right in there and volunteer their time too to make the scout experience (girl or boy) what their child wants. Scouts is not a paid activity- here take my child and entertain them like martial arts or dance class. It is only as strong as the parents of each scout are willing to make it.

I've been chewing on this exact topic for some time. With a son in Cub Scouts (a BSA program) and a daughter in Daisy Scouts (a GSUSA program), it is amazing the stark contrast between the two parent organizations. I've talked with several GSUSA leaders who feel it "isn't fair" when a church charters a BSA unit, but not a GSUSA unit. What they fail to understand is that the entire GSUSA organization is structured differently, specifically so that the unit is chartered by GSUSA and not by the host organization. This fundamental difference in structure leads to two very different programs, even if they share the same last name. That being said, I don't think it would be a good idea to make Cub Scouts and/or Boy Scouts co-ed. These programs are specifically designed for boys to be boys. I would, however, enthusiastically support a new, girls-only program created by BSA. I don't think this will happen anytime soon, but I would be excited to help if/when it does.

I don't want my daughter in Boy Scouts per se, but it would be nice if the BSA had an adjunct organization for girls.

We looked into Brownies and it is boring. No real camping, not real self reliance activities, even the badges are iron on so they don't even get sewing anymore. It seems to be all about fundraising.

If I wanted my daughter in Retail Sales 101 I'd have her open a kiosk at the mall. I want her to become more self reliant. I wish there was a girls portion of the BSA, because I can't stomach the GSA. They aren't about scouting.

I'm calling the brownie troop leader tomorrow and saying we will not be joining. I guess she'll just have to take up martial arts for now.

Scouting is definitely shrinking. As a multi-decade Scout leader at the Cub Scout level, I can say without a doubt that the largest contributor to a shrinking Cub Scout program -- which of course leads to a shrinking Boy Scout Program -- is that a growing number of Cub units are prevented from actively recruiting within the public school system.

When we were allowed to visit classrooms, with boys in uniform showing off their pinewood derby cars, Estes model rockets, and regaling the classroom with the exploits of Cub Day Camp and all its associated fun with BB-Guns, Archery, et al, we regularly recruited multiple fresh dens of Tigers, Wolves and Bears.

When this was prevented in the name of political correctness, the recruitment effort become much more difficult and therefore more expensive. The drop off in recruitment was marked and never recovers in those regions where recruiting in the classroom is relegated to a flyer stuffed in the boys' backpacks -- if that is even allowed.

Political correctness leads to polarity and division, because it inevitably is overwhelmed by those who retreat to the "traditional values" camps. This never works, and leads to more fresh parents to being turned off by the program (or not giving it a chance.)

It is my firm belief that if more people would simply acknowledge that boys learn DIFFERENTLY from girls, that much of the argument for the need for separateness would be much less opposed. As I stated in my previous post, there are now finally qualified educators and researchers investigating the effect of education styles on the learning rates of boys and girls.

For those who wish, try googling the phrase, "Smart boys, bad grades," and you will be well on your way to seeing sea-change effect of an entire generation of teaching styles on our young men.

This translates directly to the teaching style of a boy-centric program that Scouting, thankfully, has stuck to throughout its hundred-year history. Boys learn differently, they need to learn differently, and suggesting that this last bastion of boy-centric learning should change and "evolve" (God, how I hate the connotations of that word) to include girls actively in the program is to ignore the needs of our young men.

Please read Smart Boys, Bad Grades, and let's get this discussion centered on the need for a program that teaches boys in the way that is best for raising the next generation of men who are not lost.

In British Columbia we have had co-ed groups in Scouting from Beavers on up for at least 10 years. Each group has the option of going co-ed or not. Seems to work well here. Agree with Scoutmaster that if is incumbent upon the parents to become involved and supportive, but the whole experience (Scouting or Guiding, as the girls are called in Canada)hinges also on the enthusiasm displayed by their leaders.

Membership is falling for a reason and its not from lack of fun things to do or not having coed membership. The BSA promotes health, fitness, morales and leadership. Many parents send their boys into scouts for free babysitting or to give them something to do. When it becomes too much time for the parents to put in, they no longer bring the boys to meetings or activities. When the boys are challenged outside of their comfort zone, their parents do not encourage them to try new things. I can easily keep a boy engaged, but if the parents do not support and encourage them, they will not succeed.

As for girls in the scouts, I do not see an issue with it beyond some logistic changes. Two-deep leadership would change to four-deep leadership because you would need adult women leaders who can relate and build friendships with the young girls. There are many women active in Scout troops and its not too uncommon to even have a woman Scoutmaster.

Most Cub Scouts packs encourage family participation and in the Pack's I've been involved with, the Scout sisters participate in every activity the boys do save except rank advancement. If there are competitions, they are included and receive the same rewards as the boys. My own daughter is our local Pack's Raingutter Regatta champion two years running now.

I've been told the BSA has approached the GSUSA in order to merge and combine their programs, but it has been the Girl Scouts who do not want to go coed, not the Boy Scouts.

Come on, do you really think teenage boys would have a problem with girls in their troops?

I am disappointed to hear that people feel like Girl Scouts can't "go do things" besides quilting and cookie sales. I have some great memories from GIRL scouting where we went rock climbing and camping. If girls are being expected to only do "girly" things by the leaders, then someone needs to step up and give these girls more exciting activities. Boy Scouts are for boys; Girl Scouts are for girls.

BSA is positioned well enough to add co-ed or girls only programs but, please, leave the Boys Scouts and Cub Scouts as boys only.

The scouting program in other countries are co-ed. If the girl scout program can't accommodate the needs of an outdoor program, bring them into the Boy Scouts.

What does liberal and conservative have to do with discussion? Let's leave politics out okay?

There are organizations for boy under 13 (Cub Scouts).

There are Daisy, Brownie, Girl Scouts and Sr. Girls Scouts (not sure on the last one).

Venturing Crews are open to both.

I agree with the comment that if the Girl Scouts do not change their program to fit the need of their target audience, why should the Boy Scouts?

Why is it that when change to scouting is discussed, it's always what BSA isn't doing or should be doing? There's a place in this society for organizations specifically for girls and boys, just like college age sororities and fraternities have a purpose. Contrary to popular liberal belief, boy and girls are different and have different developmental needs. If girls at a younger age want to "do stuff" insist that Girl Scouts add more active programs. BSA doesn't have a monopoly on doing stuff. GSUSA should focus on giving girls what they really want. For starters, add BB guns and archery at the Brownie level. Girls would be knocking down the door to participate.

NO! It's called the BOY SCOUTS for a reason. If the Girl Scout program does not fulfill the need, then change it! There are Venture crews that allow boys and girls. Leave the Boy Scout Troops alone!